Discussion:
To the Jon Gruden fans
(too old to reply)
The Shadow
2005-12-17 21:26:46 UTC
Permalink
He lost the "tuck game" for the Raiders due to his play calling.

The Pats are spanking his fuzzy white ass on national television as I type.

Great coaches overcome an obstacle, Gruden does not.
j***@yahoo.com
2005-12-18 00:02:01 UTC
Permalink
The man has zero balls, 4th and an inch early in the game and they
punted. I don't give a shit about field position. If you get an inch
you keep control of the game.

Same old Gruden bullshit.

It was obvious early on that Caddy wasn't going to get much yardage
this game, but give Jon_Boy credit for sticking to a failed game plan
as usual..

JD
A.Melon
2005-12-18 06:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
It was obvious early on that Caddy wasn't going to get much yardage
this game, but give Jon_Boy credit for sticking to a failed game plan
as usual..
As usual? How about THIS game plan, loser? >>
http://tinyurl.com/7zeou
The Shadow
2005-12-18 15:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@yahoo.com
The man has zero balls, 4th and an inch early in the game and they
punted. I don't give a shit about field position. If you get an inch
you keep control of the game.
Same old Gruden bullshit.
It was obvious early on that Caddy wasn't going to get much yardage
this game, but give Jon_Boy credit for sticking to a failed game plan
as usual..
JD
A great coach changes and adapts his game plan, did not happen here.
R. J. Salvi
2005-12-18 01:52:56 UTC
Permalink
I agree. We just have to look no further than the Raiders as an example of
excellence. They're currently in a class by themselves. I mean, they're
without peer in the AFC West. Over the past few years, the records they've
set (W/L) have only been rivaled by what, one or two more teams? If they
maintain their consistency next season, they might be in a league of their
own. The Raiders are soooo good, they have the ability to substitute their
regular QB with a backup and then back the next week without missing a beat!
They're so good, the players don't even look like they're trying! Hell, if
the Raiders were in the NFC South, they'd be undefeated.

Yeah, Gruden's a poseur and Brady sucks. I know that for a fact because I'm
a true Raiders fan rooting for MY Raiders...a team with a great coach and a
HOF QB. What's not to like...?
--
Robert J. Salvi, Ambiance Acoustics
http://www.ambianceacoustics.com
San Diego, CA USA
(858) 485-7514
Post by The Shadow
He lost the "tuck game" for the Raiders due to his play calling.
The Pats are spanking his fuzzy white ass on national television as I type.
Great coaches overcome an obstacle, Gruden does not.
The Shadow
2005-12-18 15:24:37 UTC
Permalink
Norv Turner is an idiot and Al Davis is a senile old fool.

That does not change the fact that Gruden is not that great of a head coach.
If his Bucs were playing any other team besides the Raiders during the Super
Bowl his team would not have won.

If Brady was playing for the Raiders he would get killed with the type of O
line that they have.
Post by R. J. Salvi
I agree. We just have to look no further than the Raiders as an example of
excellence. They're currently in a class by themselves. I mean, they're
without peer in the AFC West. Over the past few years, the records they've
set (W/L) have only been rivaled by what, one or two more teams? If they
maintain their consistency next season, they might be in a league of their
own. The Raiders are soooo good, they have the ability to substitute their
regular QB with a backup and then back the next week without missing a
beat! They're so good, the players don't even look like they're trying!
Hell, if the Raiders were in the NFC South, they'd be undefeated.
Yeah, Gruden's a poseur and Brady sucks. I know that for a fact because
I'm a true Raiders fan rooting for MY Raiders...a team with a great coach
and a HOF QB. What's not to like...?
--
Robert J. Salvi, Ambiance Acoustics
http://www.ambianceacoustics.com
San Diego, CA USA
(858) 485-7514
Post by The Shadow
He lost the "tuck game" for the Raiders due to his play calling.
The Pats are spanking his fuzzy white ass on national television as I type.
Great coaches overcome an obstacle, Gruden does not.
R. J. Salvi
2005-12-18 16:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Shadow
Norv Turner is an idiot and Al Davis is a senile old fool.
Agreed.
Post by The Shadow
That does not change the fact that Gruden is not that great of a head
coach. If his Bucs were playing any other team besides the Raiders during
the Super Bowl his team would not have won.
Pure speculation and the fact is, they beat us badly. If one is a true
Raiders fan, there is no other yardstick for success other than winning.
"Just win baby."
Post by The Shadow
If Brady was playing for the Raiders he would get killed with the type of
O line that they have.
Perhaps if Brady was our QB, the offensive line would overachieve instead of
underachieve.

I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
However, the Raiders' organization really *needs* to adopt the twelve step
program right now and admit they suck. Once they do that, then they can
objectively look at the problems with this team and begin addressing them.
And it starts at the top.

After the first loss at NE, I made a comment something to the effect: "I've
seen this all before." Basically what I was saying, was: same shit,
different day. All the off-season changes to this team were done with smoke
and mirrors and the root problem persists. Al Davis keeps insisting that the
Raiders will be back and great again, but he keeps stepping in the same pile
of shit by repeating the past year's mistakes. The cycle really needs to
stop before this team can move forward.

Some say give Turner more of a chance because statistics show that rotating
head coaches are not conducive to consistency and winning. I would agree
with that if the Raiders were improving, but they're not. They're getting
worse. Gruden went 8-8 his first two years, but year 2 of his tenure showed
decided improvement and it was obvious the team was moving in the right
direction. If Norv stays on another year and this team loses its first two
games, it'll start crumbling immediately.

No, Gruden is not the second coming, but he *does* have a SB ring and his
team this year wasn't expected to break .500. More than that, it's obvious
his team is steadily improving, not devolving. That's the key...improvement.
I don't see it on the horizon in Raiderland.
--
Robert J. Salvi, Ambiance Acoustics
http://www.ambianceacoustics.com
San Diego, CA USA
(858) 485-7514
Post by The Shadow
Post by R. J. Salvi
I agree. We just have to look no further than the Raiders as an example of
excellence. They're currently in a class by themselves. I mean, they're
without peer in the AFC West. Over the past few years, the records they've
set (W/L) have only been rivaled by what, one or two more teams? If they
maintain their consistency next season, they might be in a league of their
own. The Raiders are soooo good, they have the ability to substitute their
regular QB with a backup and then back the next week without missing a
beat! They're so good, the players don't even look like they're trying!
Hell, if the Raiders were in the NFC South, they'd be undefeated.
Yeah, Gruden's a poseur and Brady sucks. I know that for a fact because
I'm a true Raiders fan rooting for MY Raiders...a team with a great coach
and a HOF QB. What's not to like...?
Post by The Shadow
He lost the "tuck game" for the Raiders due to his play calling.
The Pats are spanking his fuzzy white ass on national television as I type.
Great coaches overcome an obstacle, Gruden does not.
The Shadow
2005-12-18 16:38:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by The Shadow
Norv Turner is an idiot and Al Davis is a senile old fool.
Agreed.
Post by The Shadow
That does not change the fact that Gruden is not that great of a head
coach. If his Bucs were playing any other team besides the Raiders during
the Super Bowl his team would not have won.
Pure speculation and the fact is, they beat us badly. If one is a true
Raiders fan, there is no other yardstick for success other than winning.
"Just win baby."
We were still using Jon Gruden's playbook.
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by The Shadow
If Brady was playing for the Raiders he would get killed with the type of
O line that they have.
Perhaps if Brady was our QB, the offensive line would overachieve instead
of underachieve.
Even if we had a Manning the QB would be getting killed.

So far Gallery is a bust, Simms should be shot, Stone is a joke....etc.
Post by R. J. Salvi
I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
However, the Raiders' organization really *needs* to adopt the twelve step
program right now and admit they suck. Once they do that, then they can
objectively look at the problems with this team and begin addressing them.
And it starts at the top.
Al Davis, we all know that.
Post by R. J. Salvi
"I've seen this all before." Basically what I was saying, was: same shit,
different day. All the off-season changes to this team were done with
smoke and mirrors and the root problem persists. Al Davis keeps insisting
that the Raiders will be back and great again, but he keeps stepping in
the same pile of shit by repeating the past year's mistakes. The cycle
really needs to stop before this team can move forward.
Get a coach with some balls.

Gruden had balls but he is not the best coach the Raiders ever
had.....MADDEN!!!!!!!!
Post by R. J. Salvi
Some say give Turner more of a chance because statistics show that
rotating head coaches are not conducive to consistency and winning. I
would agree with that if the Raiders were improving, but they're not.
They're getting worse. Gruden went 8-8 his first two years, but year 2 of
his tenure showed decided improvement and it was obvious the team was
moving in the right direction. If Norv stays on another year and this team
loses its first two games, it'll start crumbling immediately.
Turner will be gone.
Post by R. J. Salvi
No, Gruden is not the second coming, but he *does* have a SB ring and his
team this year wasn't expected to break .500. More than that, it's obvious
his team is steadily improving, not devolving. That's the
key...improvement. I don't see it on the horizon in Raiderland.
He knew the Raiders' playbook and the Bucs' D that year was on par with the
2000 Ravens.

Gruden is a better coach then Turner, my grandmother is a better coach then
Turner. Hell, my dog is a better coach then Turner and he eats his own
shit.
Post by R. J. Salvi
--
Robert J. Salvi, Ambiance Acoustics
http://www.ambianceacoustics.com
San Diego, CA USA
(858) 485-7514
Post by The Shadow
Post by R. J. Salvi
I agree. We just have to look no further than the Raiders as an example
of excellence. They're currently in a class by themselves. I mean,
they're without peer in the AFC West. Over the past few years, the
records they've set (W/L) have only been rivaled by what, one or two more
teams? If they maintain their consistency next season, they might be in a
league of their own. The Raiders are soooo good, they have the ability to
substitute their regular QB with a backup and then back the next week
without missing a beat! They're so good, the players don't even look like
they're trying! Hell, if the Raiders were in the NFC South, they'd be
undefeated.
Yeah, Gruden's a poseur and Brady sucks. I know that for a fact because
I'm a true Raiders fan rooting for MY Raiders...a team with a great
coach and a HOF QB. What's not to like...?
Post by The Shadow
He lost the "tuck game" for the Raiders due to his play calling.
The Pats are spanking his fuzzy white ass on national television as I type.
Great coaches overcome an obstacle, Gruden does not.
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-18 18:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. J. Salvi
I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
They finally played a "big boy" team yesterday (an AFC playoff team).

Oops.

TB and Gruden: OVER RATED.
--
Gary
JC Martin
2005-12-19 02:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
They finally played a "big boy" team yesterday (an AFC playoff team).
Oops.
TB and Gruden: OVER RATED.
Gruden may be overrated, but he's the best head coach we've had for the
Raiders since Madden. Now let's start a Flores debate, k? ;-)

-JC
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-19 03:19:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
They finally played a "big boy" team yesterday (an AFC playoff team).
Oops.
TB and Gruden: OVER RATED.
Gruden may be overrated, but he's the best head coach we've had for the
Raiders since Madden.
Perhaps, but he is gone now, and he is not anywhere close to the great
coach the Al-haters make him out to be. He hit the lottery with TB his
first year and now is in charge of a mediocre team that is all of his
design. There is not ONE quality win on his schedule this year (same as
us) and he lost to SF for fucksake. His team sucked just as bad as we did
last year, and only won 7 the year before... perhaps people forget?

Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al? I still
get confused on what we are supposed to give credit to Gruden for, and
what we are supposed to blame Al for during the Gruden years).
Post by JC Martin
Now let's start a Flores debate, k? ;-)
--
Gary
R. J. Salvi
2005-12-19 03:27:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
They finally played a "big boy" team yesterday (an AFC playoff team).
Oops.
TB and Gruden: OVER RATED.
Gruden may be overrated, but he's the best head coach we've had for the
Raiders since Madden.
Perhaps, but he is gone now, and he is not anywhere close to the great
coach the Al-haters make him out to be. He hit the lottery with TB his
first year and now is in charge of a mediocre team that is all of his
design. There is not ONE quality win on his schedule this year (same as
us) and he lost to SF for fucksake. His team sucked just as bad as we did
last year, and only won 7 the year before... perhaps people forget?
Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al? I still
get confused on what we are supposed to give credit to Gruden for, and
what we are supposed to blame Al for during the Gruden years).
Post by JC Martin
Now let's start a Flores debate, k? ;-)
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?

As for me, I credit Al for hiring Gruden and credit Gruden for building a
team. Win/win.
--
Robert J. Salvi, Ambiance Acoustics
http://www.ambianceacoustics.com
San Diego, CA USA
(858) 485-7514
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-19 04:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
They finally played a "big boy" team yesterday (an AFC playoff team).
Oops.
TB and Gruden: OVER RATED.
Gruden may be overrated, but he's the best head coach we've had for the
Raiders since Madden.
Perhaps, but he is gone now, and he is not anywhere close to the great
coach the Al-haters make him out to be. He hit the lottery with TB his
first year and now is in charge of a mediocre team that is all of his
design. There is not ONE quality win on his schedule this year (same as
us) and he lost to SF for fucksake. His team sucked just as bad as we did
last year, and only won 7 the year before... perhaps people forget?
Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al? I still
get confused on what we are supposed to give credit to Gruden for, and
what we are supposed to blame Al for during the Gruden years).
Post by JC Martin
Now let's start a Flores debate, k? ;-)
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?
2001 28 28 Derrick Gibson DB Florida State

STINKS


2 2 28 59 Marques Tuiasosopo QB Washington

STINKS

3 3 27 89 DeLawrence Grant DE Oregon State

STINKS

4 5 27 158 Raymond Perryman DBNorthern Arizona


STINKS

5 6 21 184 Chris Cooper DE Nebraska-Omaha

STINKS



6 7 28 228 Derek Combs RB Ohio State

STINKS


7 7 29 229 Ken-Yon Rambo WR Ohio State


STINKS


2000 1 1 17 17 Sebastian Janikowski K Florida State


MEDIOCRE


2 2 16 47 Jerry Porter WR West Virginia


Great pick.


3 4 13 107 Junior Ioane DT Arizona State


STINKS

4 5 13 142 Shane Lechler P Texas A&M


Good pick


5 7 21 227 Mondriel Fulcher RB Miami (FL)


STINKS


6 7 25 231 Clifton Black DB Southwe Texas State


STINKS


1999 1 1 18 18 Matt Stinchcomb T Georgia



STINKS


2 2 9 40 Tony Bryant DE Florida State


STINKS


3 4 7 102 Dameane Douglas WR California

STINKS



4 5 13 146 Eric Barton LB Maryland

MEDIOCRE


5 5 20 153 Roderick Coleman DE East Carolina


Good pick but gone.


6 6 19 188 Daren Yancey DT Brigham Young


STINKS

7 7 18 224 JoJuan Armour LB Miami (OH)


STINKS


1998 1 1 4 4 Charles Woodson DB Michigan


Good pick I guess.


2 1 23 23 Mo Collins T Florida


STINKS

3 2 1 31 Leon Bender DT Washington State


STINKS

4 3 2 63 Jon Ritchie RB Stanford

Mediocre


5 4 17 109 Gennaro DiNapoli G Virginia Tech


STINKS


6 5 4 127 Jeremy Brigham TE Washington

STINKS


7 5 29 152 Travian Smith LB Oklahoma


STINKS


8 7 41 230 Vince Amey DT Arizona State


STINKS

9 7 46 235 David Sanders DE Arkansas


STINKS



So in four years of Gruden picks we are playing a starting WR, a kicker
and a punter, and an occasionally outstanding CB that is injury prone.


I think I could do that good.
Post by R. J. Salvi
As for me, I credit Al for hiring Gruden and credit Gruden for building a
team. Win/win.
--
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-19 04:44:36 UTC
Permalink
Here's the rest of Grudens picks:

2005 1 1 5 5 Carnell Williams RB Auburn
2 2 4 36 Barrett Ruud LB Nebraska
3 3 7 71 Alex Smith TE Stanford
4 3 27 91 Chris Colmer T North Carolina State
5 4 6 107 Dan Buenning G Wisconsin
6 5 5 141 Donte Nicholson DB Oklahoma
7 5 19 155 Larry Brackins WRPearl River C.C.
8 6 4 178 Anthony Bryant DT Alabama
9 7 7 221 Rick Razzano RB Mississippi
10 7 11 225 Paris Warren WR Utah
11 7 17 231 Hamza Abdullah DBWashington State
12 7 39 253 J.R. Russell WR Louisville
2004 1 1 15 15 Michael Clayton WRLouisiana State
2 3 16 79 Marquis Cooper LB Washington
3 4 15 111 Will Allen DB Ohio State
4 5 14 146 Jeb Terry G North Carolina
5 6 16 181 Nate Lawrie TE Yale
6 7 5 206 Mark Jones WR Tennessee
7 7 27 228 Casey Cramer RB Dartmouth
8 7 51 252 Lenny Williams DB Southern
2003 1 2 32 64 Dewayne White DE Louisville
2 3 33 97 Chris Simms QB Texas
3 4 33 130 Lance Nimmo T West Virginia
4 4 36 133 Austin King C Northwestern
5 5 33 168 Sean Mahan G Notre Dame
6 6 32 205 Torrie Cox DB Pittsburgh
2002 1 3 21 86 Marquis Walker WR Michigan
2 4 21 119 Travis Stephens RB Tennessee
3 5 22 157 Jermaine Phillips DB Georgia
4 6 21 193 John Stamper DE South Carolina
5 7 22 233 Tim Wansley DB Georgia
6 7 40 251 Tracey Wistrom TE Nebraska
7 7 43 254 Aaron Lockett WR Kansas State
8 7 44 255 Zack Quaccia C Stanford



What is there, like three starters here? Simms, Williams, and Clayton?

Genius my ass. He's drafted like 7 starters in 8 years, and two of them
are highly drafted kickers.


Turner in two years has more non-kicker starters on a roster as Gruden did
in 8 years. Washington, Morrison, Gallery, Grove, Schweigert, and
Anderson (7th rounder!)

Maybe we should get rid of Turner after he gets done helping make picks!
Nightcrawler
2005-12-19 04:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Umm, Leon Bender stinks because he is dead.
2001 28 28 Derrick Gibson DB Florida State
STINKS
2 2 28 59 Marques Tuiasosopo QB Washington
STINKS
3 3 27 89 DeLawrence Grant DE Oregon State
STINKS
4 5 27 158 Raymond Perryman DBNorthern Arizona
STINKS
5 6 21 184 Chris Cooper DE Nebraska-Omaha
STINKS
6 7 28 228 Derek Combs RB Ohio State
STINKS
7 7 29 229 Ken-Yon Rambo WR Ohio State
STINKS
2000 1 1 17 17 Sebastian Janikowski K Florida State
MEDIOCRE
2 2 16 47 Jerry Porter WR West Virginia
Great pick.
3 4 13 107 Junior Ioane DT Arizona State
STINKS
4 5 13 142 Shane Lechler P Texas A&M
Good pick
5 7 21 227 Mondriel Fulcher RB Miami (FL)
STINKS
6 7 25 231 Clifton Black DB Southwe Texas State
STINKS
1999 1 1 18 18 Matt Stinchcomb T Georgia
STINKS
2 2 9 40 Tony Bryant DE Florida State
STINKS
3 4 7 102 Dameane Douglas WR California
STINKS
4 5 13 146 Eric Barton LB Maryland
MEDIOCRE
5 5 20 153 Roderick Coleman DE East Carolina
Good pick but gone.
6 6 19 188 Daren Yancey DT Brigham Young
STINKS
7 7 18 224 JoJuan Armour LB Miami (OH)
STINKS
1998 1 1 4 4 Charles Woodson DB Michigan
Good pick I guess.
2 1 23 23 Mo Collins T Florida
STINKS
3 2 1 31 Leon Bender DT Washington State
STINKS
4 3 2 63 Jon Ritchie RB Stanford
Mediocre
5 4 17 109 Gennaro DiNapoli G Virginia Tech
STINKS
6 5 4 127 Jeremy Brigham TE Washington
STINKS
7 5 29 152 Travian Smith LB Oklahoma
STINKS
8 7 41 230 Vince Amey DT Arizona State
STINKS
9 7 46 235 David Sanders DE Arkansas
STINKS
So in four years of Gruden picks we are playing a starting WR, a kicker
and a punter, and an occasionally outstanding CB that is injury prone.
I think I could do that good.
Post by R. J. Salvi
As for me, I credit Al for hiring Gruden and credit Gruden for building a
team. Win/win.
--
RFM
2005-12-19 05:07:17 UTC
Permalink
LMAO! That's just wrong.
Post by Nightcrawler
Umm, Leon Bender stinks because he is dead.
Nightcrawler
2005-12-19 05:14:35 UTC
Permalink
I'm sorry. I apologize for that. ; )
Post by RFM
LMAO! That's just wrong.
Post by Nightcrawler
Umm, Leon Bender stinks because he is dead.
Nightcrawler
2005-12-19 05:17:54 UTC
Permalink
How long until Russell stinks?
Post by RFM
LMAO! That's just wrong.
Post by Nightcrawler
Umm, Leon Bender stinks because he is dead.
131,33,17
2005-12-21 12:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
They finally played a "big boy" team yesterday (an AFC playoff team).
Oops.
TB and Gruden: OVER RATED.
Gruden may be overrated, but he's the best head coach we've had for the
Raiders since Madden.
Perhaps, but he is gone now, and he is not anywhere close to the great
coach the Al-haters make him out to be. He hit the lottery with TB his
first year and now is in charge of a mediocre team that is all of his
design. There is not ONE quality win on his schedule this year (same as
us) and he lost to SF for fucksake. His team sucked just as bad as we did
last year, and only won 7 the year before... perhaps people forget?
Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al? I still
get confused on what we are supposed to give credit to Gruden for, and
what we are supposed to blame Al for during the Gruden years).
Post by JC Martin
Now let's start a Flores debate, k? ;-)
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?
2001 28 28 Derrick Gibson DB Florida State
STINKS
2 2 28 59 Marques Tuiasosopo QB Washington
STINKS
3 3 27 89 DeLawrence Grant DE Oregon State
STINKS
4 5 27 158 Raymond Perryman DBNorthern Arizona
STINKS
5 6 21 184 Chris Cooper DE Nebraska-Omaha
STINKS
6 7 28 228 Derek Combs RB Ohio State
STINKS
7 7 29 229 Ken-Yon Rambo WR Ohio State
STINKS
2000 1 1 17 17 Sebastian Janikowski K Florida State
MEDIOCRE
2 2 16 47 Jerry Porter WR West Virginia
Great pick.
3 4 13 107 Junior Ioane DT Arizona State
STINKS
4 5 13 142 Shane Lechler P Texas A&M
Good pick
5 7 21 227 Mondriel Fulcher RB Miami (FL)
STINKS
6 7 25 231 Clifton Black DB Southwe Texas State
STINKS
1999 1 1 18 18 Matt Stinchcomb T Georgia
STINKS
2 2 9 40 Tony Bryant DE Florida State
STINKS
3 4 7 102 Dameane Douglas WR California
STINKS
4 5 13 146 Eric Barton LB Maryland
MEDIOCRE
5 5 20 153 Roderick Coleman DE East Carolina
Good pick but gone.
6 6 19 188 Daren Yancey DT Brigham Young
STINKS
7 7 18 224 JoJuan Armour LB Miami (OH)
STINKS
1998 1 1 4 4 Charles Woodson DB Michigan
Good pick I guess.
2 1 23 23 Mo Collins T Florida
STINKS
3 2 1 31 Leon Bender DT Washington State
STINKS
4 3 2 63 Jon Ritchie RB Stanford
Mediocre
5 4 17 109 Gennaro DiNapoli G Virginia Tech
STINKS
6 5 4 127 Jeremy Brigham TE Washington
STINKS
7 5 29 152 Travian Smith LB Oklahoma
STINKS
8 7 41 230 Vince Amey DT Arizona State
STINKS
9 7 46 235 David Sanders DE Arkansas
STINKS
So in four years of Gruden picks we are playing a starting WR, a kicker
and a punter, and an occasionally outstanding CB that is injury prone.
I think I could do that good.
Be careful what you ask for (Citations) ...
Outstanding ... G'.
Silence is GOLDEN!!
--
Godspeed RAIDERS!!!
131,33,17
R. J. Salvi
2005-12-21 14:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by 131,33,17
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
They finally played a "big boy" team yesterday (an AFC playoff team).
Oops.
TB and Gruden: OVER RATED.
Gruden may be overrated, but he's the best head coach we've had for the
Raiders since Madden.
Perhaps, but he is gone now, and he is not anywhere close to the great
coach the Al-haters make him out to be. He hit the lottery with TB his
first year and now is in charge of a mediocre team that is all of his
design. There is not ONE quality win on his schedule this year (same as
us) and he lost to SF for fucksake. His team sucked just as bad as we did
last year, and only won 7 the year before... perhaps people forget?
Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al? I still
get confused on what we are supposed to give credit to Gruden for, and
what we are supposed to blame Al for during the Gruden years).
Post by JC Martin
Now let's start a Flores debate, k? ;-)
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?
2001 28 28 Derrick Gibson DB Florida State
STINKS
2 2 28 59 Marques Tuiasosopo QB Washington
STINKS
3 3 27 89 DeLawrence Grant DE Oregon State
STINKS
4 5 27 158 Raymond Perryman DBNorthern Arizona
STINKS (Gone)
5 6 21 184 Chris Cooper DE Nebraska-Omaha
STINKS (Gone)
6 7 28 228 Derek Combs RB Ohio State
STINKS (Gone)
7 7 29 229 Ken-Yon Rambo WR Ohio State
STINKS (Gone)
2000 1 1 17 17 Sebastian Janikowski K Florida State
MEDIOCRE
2 2 16 47 Jerry Porter WR West Virginia
Great pick.
3 4 13 107 Junior Ioane DT Arizona State
STINKS (Gone)
4 5 13 142 Shane Lechler P Texas A&M
Good pick
5 7 21 227 Mondriel Fulcher RB Miami (FL)
STINKS (Gone)
6 7 25 231 Clifton Black DB Southwe Texas State
STINKS (Gone)
1999 1 1 18 18 Matt Stinchcomb T Georgia
STINKS (Gone)
2 2 9 40 Tony Bryant DE Florida State
STINKS (Gone)
3 4 7 102 Dameane Douglas WR California
STINKS (Gone)
4 5 13 146 Eric Barton LB Maryland
MEDIOCRE (Gone)
5 5 20 153 Roderick Coleman DE East Carolina
Good pick but gone.
6 6 19 188 Daren Yancey DT Brigham Young
STINKS (Gone)
7 7 18 224 JoJuan Armour LB Miami (OH)
STINKS (Gone)
1998 1 1 4 4 Charles Woodson DB Michigan
Good pick I guess.
2 1 23 23 Mo Collins T Florida
STINKS (Gone)
3 2 1 31 Leon Bender DT Washington State
STINKS (Gone)
4 3 2 63 Jon Ritchie RB Stanford
Mediocre (Gone)
5 4 17 109 Gennaro DiNapoli G Virginia Tech
STINKS (Gone)
6 5 4 127 Jeremy Brigham TE Washington
STINKS (Gone)
7 5 29 152 Travian Smith LB Oklahoma
STINKS (Gone)
8 7 41 230 Vince Amey DT Arizona State
STINKS (Gone)
9 7 46 235 David Sanders DE Arkansas
STINKS (Gone)
So in four years of Gruden picks we are playing a starting WR, a kicker
and a punter, and an occasionally outstanding CB that is injury prone.
I think I could do that good.
Be careful what you ask for (Citations) ...
Outstanding ... G'.
Silence is GOLDEN!!
Did you read Gary's original post? I quote:

"Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al?"

Please understand, this was not a selective cut & paste to quote Gary out of
context. And I originally chose not to respond to this post because he
didn't accurately answer my question in the context it was asked and I
didn't want another shitstorm. But since YOU brought it up Pirate, here
goes.

I'll ask again:
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?

My question was in reference to the Raiders current performance because Gary
was very specific in saying: "right now". Instead, I received a list which
represents ALL Gruden's draft picks, most of whom ARE NOT even with the team
"right now." If they *are not* playing right now, then we can conclude that
it *is not* Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks" as the reason(s) the
Raiders are "stinking right now."

This is not semantics. Gary makes a good point about draft picks under the
Gruden era as being busts, but look at the Raiders current roster and look
at the Raiders current record. No, Gruden's draft picks are not the reason
the Raiders suck right now.

Maybe one day we can discuss Gruden's free agent acquisitions, but if they
stunk too, then how could a 34y/o coaching neophyte build a winning team
with no good draft picks or FAs? Al was actually coaching in a Gruden
lookalike costume? Hmmm....
--
Robert J. Salvi, Ambiance Acoustics
http://www.ambianceacoustics.com
San Diego, CA USA
(858) 485-7514
JC Martin
2005-12-21 17:50:52 UTC
Permalink
R. J. Salvi wrote:

<snip>
Post by R. J. Salvi
Maybe one day we can discuss Gruden's free agent acquisitions, but if they
stunk too, then how could a 34y/o coaching neophyte build a winning team
with no good draft picks or FAs? Al was actually coaching in a Gruden
lookalike costume? Hmmm....
I don't anyone on our side is saying Gruden is perfect either. I
thought he could be a bit too conservative at times and I didn't like
all of his player rotations, especially at the RB position. But in the
end I took the wins for what they were. All that said, I doubt Gruden
ever had complete control of the drafting process. I know he did
campaign for Janikowski. But overall the Gruden/Allen team turned this
organization around. However, like with Marcus Allen, Al's ego is more
important than that! You don't see ol' senile chant of "Commitment To
Excellence" much these days, do ya?

-JC
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-22 04:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. J. Salvi
"Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al?"
Please understand, this was not a selective cut & paste to quote Gary out of
context. And I originally chose not to respond to this post because he
didn't accurately answer my question in the context it was asked and I
didn't want another shitstorm. But since YOU brought it up Pirate, here
goes.
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?
My question was in reference to the Raiders current performance because Gary
was very specific in saying: "right now". Instead, I received a list which
represents ALL Gruden's draft picks, most of whom ARE NOT even with the team
"right now." If they *are not* playing right now, then we can conclude that
it *is not* Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks" as the reason(s) the
Raiders are "stinking right now."
This is not semantics. Gary makes a good point about draft picks under the
Gruden era as being busts, but look at the Raiders current roster and look
at the Raiders current record. No, Gruden's draft picks are not the reason
the Raiders suck right now.
I guess I don't understand your logic. If someone drafts a bunch of shit
players for four years that aren't playing because they are shit, that
means we have to fill out the starting roster in other ways, which of
course means free-agency, which usually is much more expensive against the
cap.

Plus we are still wasting draft picks filling up the spots that shoulda
been filled if not for all of the busts. Fer instance, because Gibson is
a bust, we will now have to spend ANOTHER high draft pick filling his
spot... or spend 10 million of our cap bucks for a great free agent.

[I'm using this as an example because I am pining for a great safety]

Many successive years of horrible drafting KILLS a team in the long run...
especially in the cap era. NE is a MASTER at drafting. Case closed.

BTW, this is why I have high hopes for the future. We have a TON of up-
and-comer starters on defense that we drafted the last two years that
might make it easy for lotsa wins with some more experience and some fill
ins. Our lone pro-bowler will hopefully anchor things for awhile.
Post by R. J. Salvi
Maybe one day we can discuss Gruden's free agent acquisitions, but if they
stunk too, then how could a 34y/o coaching neophyte build a winning team
with no good draft picks or FAs? Al was actually coaching in a Gruden
lookalike costume? Hmmm....
Gruden hit the lottery with Gannon, and we still had Brown in his prime.
We simply needed to plug in Rice and Garner, an o-line that over-achieved
in pass protection, plus a few veterans to help the defense out, and we
were in business. The key player here was GANNON.

A hot QB will smooth over lotsa rough spots on a team, kinda like how hot
monkey sex can keep a shitty relationship intact when it has no reason to
exist.
--
Gary
JC Martin
2005-12-22 05:44:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary DeWaay
Gruden hit the lottery with Gannon, and we still had Brown in his prime.
We simply needed to plug in Rice and Garner, an o-line that over-achieved
in pass protection, plus a few veterans to help the defense out, and we
were in business. The key player here was GANNON.
A hot QB will smooth over lotsa rough spots on a team, kinda like how hot
monkey sex can keep a shitty relationship intact when it has no reason to
exist.
Man, you are really taking a lot of shots at Gruden. That's logic I
don't get at all. Personally, I think what Gruden has done with the
current Tampa Bay team is very admirable. And I don't see how you could
argue that he's not one of the better coaches in the league. Far better
than the Raiders will see in a long while I'm bettin'.

-JC
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-22 07:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Gruden hit the lottery with Gannon, and we still had Brown in his prime.
We simply needed to plug in Rice and Garner, an o-line that over-achieved
in pass protection, plus a few veterans to help the defense out, and we
were in business. The key player here was GANNON.
A hot QB will smooth over lotsa rough spots on a team, kinda like how hot
monkey sex can keep a shitty relationship intact when it has no reason to
exist.
Man, you are really taking a lot of shots at Gruden. That's logic I
don't get at all. Personally, I think what Gruden has done with the
current Tampa Bay team is very admirable.
HE HAS NOT BEATEN ANYBODY THIS YEAR.


And I don't see how you could
Post by JC Martin
argue that he's not one of the better coaches in the league.
His winning pct the last three years has to STILL be near the bottom 1/3.

Do you not remember how shitty they were the last two years?

Wa happened?


Far better
Post by JC Martin
than the Raiders will see in a long while I'm bettin'.
You seem like a guy that will be HAPPY that the Raiders suck just so your
opinion can be proven right.

You will deny it, but I think it is true. I'd say this is true with all
the Al-haters here.
--
Gary
JC Martin
2005-12-22 17:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Gruden hit the lottery with Gannon, and we still had Brown in his prime.
We simply needed to plug in Rice and Garner, an o-line that over-achieved
in pass protection, plus a few veterans to help the defense out, and we
were in business. The key player here was GANNON.
A hot QB will smooth over lotsa rough spots on a team, kinda like how hot
monkey sex can keep a shitty relationship intact when it has no reason to
exist.
Man, you are really taking a lot of shots at Gruden. That's logic I
don't get at all. Personally, I think what Gruden has done with the
current Tampa Bay team is very admirable.
HE HAS NOT BEATEN ANYBODY THIS YEAR.
...with a team that has average to below-average talent. Pretty
impressive season for the organization IMO.
Post by Gary DeWaay
And I don't see how you could
Post by JC Martin
argue that he's not one of the better coaches in the league.
His winning pct the last three years has to STILL be near the bottom 1/3.
Do you not remember how shitty they were the last two years?
Wa happened?
We know what happened. He came to a team with a lot of salary cap
issues. This was talked about extensively right after he got the job.
Post by Gary DeWaay
Far better
Post by JC Martin
than the Raiders will see in a long while I'm bettin'.
You seem like a guy that will be HAPPY that the Raiders suck just so your
opinion can be proven right.
Whatever Gary. This from a guy who continually criticized Gannon back
in the day.
Post by Gary DeWaay
You will deny it, but I think it is true. I'd say this is true with all
the Al-haters here.
You sound like Bush. You're either with us or against. Same kind of
logic at play.

-JC
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-22 18:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Gruden hit the lottery with Gannon, and we still had Brown in his prime.
We simply needed to plug in Rice and Garner, an o-line that over-achieved
in pass protection, plus a few veterans to help the defense out, and we
were in business. The key player here was GANNON.
A hot QB will smooth over lotsa rough spots on a team, kinda like how hot
monkey sex can keep a shitty relationship intact when it has no reason to
exist.
Man, you are really taking a lot of shots at Gruden. That's logic I
don't get at all. Personally, I think what Gruden has done with the
current Tampa Bay team is very admirable.
HE HAS NOT BEATEN ANYBODY THIS YEAR.
...with a team that has average to below-average talent. Pretty
impressive season for the organization IMO.
..and all with defense. There is only eight teams worse than him on
offense than TB. Whooppee.

He lost to SAN FRAN! End of story.
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
And I don't see how you could
Post by JC Martin
argue that he's not one of the better coaches in the league.
His winning pct the last three years has to STILL be near the bottom 1/3.
Do you not remember how shitty they were the last two years?
Wa happened?
We know what happened. He came to a team with a lot of salary cap
issues. This was talked about extensively right after he got the job.
Post by Gary DeWaay
Far better
Post by JC Martin
than the Raiders will see in a long while I'm bettin'.
You seem like a guy that will be HAPPY that the Raiders suck just so your
opinion can be proven right.
Whatever Gary. This from a guy who continually criticized Gannon back
in the day.
Bullshit liar. I praised him as much as I criticized him. Same as I do
with all Raider players. If they deserve praise, I give it. If they
don't, I don't. It's a lot better than the Al haters such as yourself
that are completely silent when we win, but come here acting like a genius
"I told you so" asshole when we get trounced.
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
You will deny it, but I think it is true. I'd say this is true with all
the Al-haters here.
You sound like Bush. You're either with us or against. Same kind of
logic at play.
Nope... you like win/win scenarios. If the Raiders win, you are happy.
If they lose, you are just as happy because you get to bitch and moan
about Al, and feel superiour in your opinion.
--
Gary
JC Martin
2005-12-22 20:37:36 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
You seem like a guy that will be HAPPY that the Raiders suck just so your
opinion can be proven right.
Whatever Gary. This from a guy who continually criticized Gannon back
in the day.
Bullshit liar. I praised him as much as I criticized him.
You criticized him for bullshit.


<snip>
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
You will deny it, but I think it is true. I'd say this is true with all
the Al-haters here.
You sound like Bush. You're either with us or against. Same kind of
logic at play.
Nope... you like win/win scenarios. If the Raiders win, you are happy.
If they lose, you are just as happy because you get to bitch and moan
about Al, and feel superiour in your opinion.
*LOL* Don't project your hang-ups on me bud. Al haters...Bush haters.
With us or against us...same kind of logic no matter how ya slice it.
I reject your wishy washy analysis.

-JC
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-23 02:11:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC Martin
<snip>
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
You seem like a guy that will be HAPPY that the Raiders suck just so your
opinion can be proven right.
Whatever Gary. This from a guy who continually criticized Gannon back
in the day.
Bullshit liar. I praised him as much as I criticized him.
You criticized him for bullshit.
Perhaps at times, and that is because I had such high expectations of him.

But to say I CONTINUALLY criticized him is complete 100% bullshit.

He is my second favorite Raider QB all-time.

And you are getting on my nerves.

Fuck Gruden... Al-haters can eat shit and fucking die... GO RAIDERS!
R. J. Salvi
2005-12-23 02:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
<snip>
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
You seem like a guy that will be HAPPY that the Raiders suck just so your
opinion can be proven right.
Whatever Gary. This from a guy who continually criticized Gannon back
in the day.
Bullshit liar. I praised him as much as I criticized him.
You criticized him for bullshit.
Perhaps at times, and that is because I had such high expectations of him.
But to say I CONTINUALLY criticized him is complete 100% bullshit.
He is my second favorite Raider QB all-time.
And you are getting on my nerves.
Fuck Gruden... Al-haters can eat shit and fucking die... GO RAIDERS!
LOL! So tell us how you really feel.
--
Robert J. Salvi, Ambiance Acoustics
http://www.ambianceacoustics.com
San Diego, CA USA
(858) 485-7514
JC Martin
2005-12-23 02:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
<snip>
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
You seem like a guy that will be HAPPY that the Raiders suck just so your
opinion can be proven right.
Whatever Gary. This from a guy who continually criticized Gannon back
in the day.
Bullshit liar. I praised him as much as I criticized him.
You criticized him for bullshit.
Perhaps at times, and that is because I had such high expectations of him.
But to say I CONTINUALLY criticized him is complete 100% bullshit.
He is my second favorite Raider QB all-time.
And you are getting on my nerves.
Fuck Gruden... Al-haters can eat shit and fucking die... GO RAIDERS!
*LOL*

Gary, relax man. Jesus. You've got to allow for differing opinions.
You're not the final word on Al muh man.

Happy Christ, Merry Holly Daze,
-JC
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-28 00:49:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Fuck Gruden... Al-haters can eat shit and fucking die... GO RAIDERS!
*LOL*
Gary, relax man. Jesus. You've got to allow for differing opinions.
You're not the final word on Al muh man.
Hey, my main point will always be that it is STILL too early to anoint
Gruden a "genius" status. Rat-face in Denver deserves it more than
Gruden, hands down. He's got twice the rings and his teams are almost
always in the playoff hunt every year REGARDLESS of the schedule.

Lets wait like 5 years to resume this... until then, if I keep hearing any
Raider fans crowing about how great TB is doing, they can STILL eat shit
and die.

;)
--
Gary
JC Martin
2005-12-28 15:48:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Fuck Gruden... Al-haters can eat shit and fucking die... GO RAIDERS!
*LOL*
Gary, relax man. Jesus. You've got to allow for differing opinions.
You're not the final word on Al muh man.
Hey, my main point will always be that it is STILL too early to anoint
Gruden a "genius" status.
I agree with that. And I didn't always side with all of Gruden's
on-field calls. I think however that he's shown an ability to get the
most out of his players--understanding how to motivate, organize,
discipline and interact with his players. I think he's also better than
any coach we have available to us right now.
Post by Gary DeWaay
Rat-face in Denver deserves it more than
Gruden, hands down. He's got twice the rings and his teams are almost
always in the playoff hunt every year REGARDLESS of the schedule.
Shanahan is an excellent coach. Another one that Al's ego couldn't
handle IMO. And another decision which bit Al in the ass.
Post by Gary DeWaay
Lets wait like 5 years to resume this... until then, if I keep hearing any
Raider fans crowing about how great TB is doing, they can STILL eat shit
and die.
;)
*LOL*

I won't lose any sleep if TB turns into shit. But hey, I think this
Simms kid does have potential for them.

-JC

Izzy
2005-12-22 19:23:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
HE HAS NOT BEATEN ANYBODY THIS YEAR.
...with a team that has average to below-average talent. Pretty
impressive season for the organization IMO.
Post by Gary DeWaay
His winning pct the last three years has to STILL be near the bottom 1/3.
Do you not remember how shitty they were the last two years?
Wa happened?
We know what happened. He came to a team with a lot of salary cap
issues. This was talked about extensively right after he got the job.
A few months before Gruden left the Raiders I made the statement that
the one team Gruden could go to and win a Super Bowl right away was
Tampa. They had ALL the talent, especially a killer D. All Gruden had to
do was motivate, lead, and tweak the offense enough to put some points
up on the board.

He lost his draft picks, the salary cap killed them, and maybe just
maybe the Raiders organization overall wasn't just about Bruce Allen.
For whatever faults he has, Gruden is a charismatic leader who get the
most out of his players. Regardless of the opinions about him, and when
he was in Oakland he won. In his last 3 seasons as a Raider Gruden's
teams did not lose a regular season game by 10 points or more, Norv's
teams have accomplished this 10 times in under two seasons. Imagine what
Gruden would have done in Oakland with Monte Kiffin instead of Chuck
"Prevent D" Bresnahan.

It's really an ambiguous argument to compare the situations. More
telling with the Gruden/Allen team in Tampa is the NEXT two years when
their cap is in good shape and they're draft picks start showing up on
the field.
JC Martin
2005-12-22 20:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Izzy
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
HE HAS NOT BEATEN ANYBODY THIS YEAR.
...with a team that has average to below-average talent. Pretty
impressive season for the organization IMO.
Post by Gary DeWaay
His winning pct the last three years has to STILL be near the bottom 1/3.
Do you not remember how shitty they were the last two years?
Wa happened?
We know what happened. He came to a team with a lot of salary cap
issues. This was talked about extensively right after he got the job.
A few months before Gruden left the Raiders I made the statement that
the one team Gruden could go to and win a Super Bowl right away was
Tampa. They had ALL the talent, especially a killer D. All Gruden had to
do was motivate, lead, and tweak the offense enough to put some points
up on the board.
He lost his draft picks, the salary cap killed them, and maybe just
maybe the Raiders organization overall wasn't just about Bruce Allen.
For whatever faults he has, Gruden is a charismatic leader who get the
most out of his players. Regardless of the opinions about him, and when
he was in Oakland he won. In his last 3 seasons as a Raider Gruden's
teams did not lose a regular season game by 10 points or more, Norv's
teams have accomplished this 10 times in under two seasons. Imagine what
Gruden would have done in Oakland with Monte Kiffin instead of Chuck
"Prevent D" Bresnahan.
It's really an ambiguous argument to compare the situations. More
telling with the Gruden/Allen team in Tampa is the NEXT two years when
their cap is in good shape and they're draft picks start showing up on
the field.
Exactly.

-JC
The Shadow
2005-12-22 10:36:34 UTC
Permalink
"Gary DeWaay" <***@sio.midco.net> wrote :



<snip>
Post by Gary DeWaay
Gruden hit the lottery with Gannon, and we still had Brown in his prime.
We simply needed to plug in Rice and Garner, an o-line that over-achieved
in pass protection, plus a few veterans to help the defense out, and we
were in business. The key player here was GANNON.
That is why Gruden tried to get Gannon to the Bucs even after he broke his
neck.

Rich Gannon was one of the best and he is sorely missed.
R. J. Salvi
2005-12-22 15:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
"Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al?"
Please understand, this was not a selective cut & paste to quote Gary out of
context. And I originally chose not to respond to this post because he
didn't accurately answer my question in the context it was asked and I
didn't want another shitstorm. But since YOU brought it up Pirate, here
goes.
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?
My question was in reference to the Raiders current performance because Gary
was very specific in saying: "right now". Instead, I received a list which
represents ALL Gruden's draft picks, most of whom ARE NOT even with the team
"right now." If they *are not* playing right now, then we can conclude that
it *is not* Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks" as the reason(s) the
Raiders are "stinking right now."
This is not semantics. Gary makes a good point about draft picks under the
Gruden era as being busts, but look at the Raiders current roster and look
at the Raiders current record. No, Gruden's draft picks are not the reason
the Raiders suck right now.
I guess I don't understand your logic. If someone drafts a bunch of shit
players for four years that aren't playing because they are shit, that
means we have to fill out the starting roster in other ways, which of
course means free-agency, which usually is much more expensive against the
cap.
Agreed, but what you're saying now is different from what you originally
said. Your original statement implied that Grudens bad draft picks were
still playing and were the reason for the Raiders "stinking." I couldn't
figure out which ones. Then you posted the list. I looked at the list,
looked at the Raiders roster and concluded that Gruden's bust draft picks
are not only not playing right now, they're not even on the roster.

But let's take a look at what you're saying now. Remember, the year after
Gruden left, Callahan (more likely Davis) brought in a slew of older big
names: Romanowski, Armstrong, Parella, R. Woodson, etc. You don't think the
Raiders are feeling the effects of having to replace them? You don't think
that the Raiders are also drafting in a different direction to bring them
back to their heralded verticle offense? No, it's not Gruden that's done in
the raiders.
Post by Gary DeWaay
Plus we are still wasting draft picks filling up the spots that shoulda
been filled if not for all of the busts. Fer instance, because Gibson is
a bust, we will now have to spend ANOTHER high draft pick filling his
spot... or spend 10 million of our cap bucks for a great free agent.
[I'm using this as an example because I am pining for a great safety]
The Raiders #1 draft picks the first two years AG (after Gruden) were Philip
Buchanon and Nnamdi Asomugha. Are they living up to #1 status? The last
decent-looking safety was Marques Anderson and the Raiders let him go and
kept Gibson, also AG. Besides, Gruden managed to win with Pope and Dorsett.
And yes, like you, I'd love to see a Roy Williams type safety roaming the
secondary, but I don't think it's going to happen any time soon.
Post by Gary DeWaay
Many successive years of horrible drafting KILLS a team in the long run...
especially in the cap era. NE is a MASTER at drafting. Case closed.
Agreed, but just like Gruden hit the free agency lotto with Gannon, NE hit
the draft lotto with Brady. It's always a crap shoot for every other team as
well. And it's not just horrible drafting that can kill a team, it's also
horrible coaching choices, horrible free agent acquisitions, consistent
losing, etc.
Post by Gary DeWaay
BTW, this is why I have high hopes for the future. We have a TON of up-
and-comer starters on defense that we drafted the last two years that
might make it easy for lotsa wins with some more experience and some fill
ins. Our lone pro-bowler will hopefully anchor things for awhile.
We'll see. The defense is not yet capable of carrying a game and some of the
players are still so young and inexperienced, that time will tell. And our
lone Pro-Bowler has been hurt the past three years. He's either fragile, or
he hates playing on a losing team. I say trade him.
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
Maybe one day we can discuss Gruden's free agent acquisitions, but if they
stunk too, then how could a 34y/o coaching neophyte build a winning team
with no good draft picks or FAs? Al was actually coaching in a Gruden
lookalike costume? Hmmm....
Gruden hit the lottery with Gannon, and we still had Brown in his prime.
We simply needed to plug in Rice and Garner, an o-line that over-achieved
in pass protection, plus a few veterans to help the defense out, and we
were in business. The key player here was GANNON.
A hot QB will smooth over lotsa rough spots on a team, kinda like how hot
monkey sex can keep a shitty relationship intact when it has no reason to
exist.
Wat a minute, I could be wrong, but wasn't it you (or was it Shadow?) that
said that Brady or Manning wouled get killed behind our line and not get
anything done? And why did our line overachieve with Gannon and an arguably
better line today, underachieve with Collins?

It wasn't as simple as plugging in Rice and Garner and voila!...instant
offense. It was the right offense, with the right people, with the right
coaching that created that offensive synergy. We simply plugged in Moss and
Jordan with our vertically inclined Collins and voila!..uh-oh. Why the
difference?

Yes, a hot QB will smooth over a lot of rough spots, but enticing a good one
to the current Raiders is like a monkey fucking a football...ain't no way
the job's gonna get done.
--
Robert J. Salvi, Ambiance Acoustics
http://www.ambianceacoustics.com
San Diego, CA USA
(858) 485-7514
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-22 18:52:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
"Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al?"
Please understand, this was not a selective cut & paste to quote Gary out of
context. And I originally chose not to respond to this post because he
didn't accurately answer my question in the context it was asked and I
didn't want another shitstorm. But since YOU brought it up Pirate, here
goes.
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?
My question was in reference to the Raiders current performance because Gary
was very specific in saying: "right now". Instead, I received a list which
represents ALL Gruden's draft picks, most of whom ARE NOT even with the team
"right now." If they *are not* playing right now, then we can conclude that
it *is not* Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks" as the reason(s) the
Raiders are "stinking right now."
This is not semantics. Gary makes a good point about draft picks under the
Gruden era as being busts, but look at the Raiders current roster and look
at the Raiders current record. No, Gruden's draft picks are not the reason
the Raiders suck right now.
I guess I don't understand your logic. If someone drafts a bunch of shit
players for four years that aren't playing because they are shit, that
means we have to fill out the starting roster in other ways, which of
course means free-agency, which usually is much more expensive against the
cap.
Agreed, but what you're saying now is different from what you originally
said. Your original statement implied that Grudens bad draft picks were
still playing and were the reason for the Raiders "stinking." I couldn't
figure out which ones. Then you posted the list. I looked at the list,
looked at the Raiders roster and concluded that Gruden's bust draft picks
are not only not playing right now, they're not even on the roster.
But let's take a look at what you're saying now. Remember, the year after
Gruden left, Callahan (more likely Davis) brought in a slew of older big
names: Romanowski, Armstrong, Parella, R. Woodson, etc. You don't think the
Raiders are feeling the effects of having to replace them? You don't think
that the Raiders are also drafting in a different direction to bring them
back to their heralded verticle offense? No, it's not Gruden that's done in
the raiders.
Bringing in those players was a GREAT move on Al's part, we nearly won a
SB doing so.

The blunder was not blowing up the team the NEXT YEAR and then starting
over... but how can you blame Al for that? He was desperate for a ring.

I can remember saying in the summer before that season that it was a HUGE
gamble to try and squeeze another year out of the veterans with the huge
cap problems we had. He gambled and lost. I can deal with that.
Apparently you can't.
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by Gary DeWaay
Plus we are still wasting draft picks filling up the spots that shoulda
been filled if not for all of the busts. Fer instance, because Gibson is
a bust, we will now have to spend ANOTHER high draft pick filling his
spot... or spend 10 million of our cap bucks for a great free agent.
[I'm using this as an example because I am pining for a great safety]
The Raiders #1 draft picks the first two years AG (after Gruden) were Philip
Buchanon and Nnamdi Asomugha. Are they living up to #1 status?
FUCK NO! Al had a horrible few years drafting. He's more than made up
for it the last two years though IMO.


The last
Post by R. J. Salvi
decent-looking safety was Marques Anderson and the Raiders let him go and
kept Gibson, also AG. Besides, Gruden managed to win with Pope and Dorsett.
And yes, like you, I'd love to see a Roy Williams type safety roaming the
secondary, but I don't think it's going to happen any time soon.
Why not?
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by Gary DeWaay
Many successive years of horrible drafting KILLS a team in the long run...
especially in the cap era. NE is a MASTER at drafting. Case closed.
Agreed, but just like Gruden hit the free agency lotto with Gannon, NE hit
the draft lotto with Brady. It's always a crap shoot for every other team as
well. And it's not just horrible drafting that can kill a team, it's also
horrible coaching choices, horrible free agent acquisitions, consistent
losing, etc.
Agreed.
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by Gary DeWaay
BTW, this is why I have high hopes for the future. We have a TON of up-
and-comer starters on defense that we drafted the last two years that
might make it easy for lotsa wins with some more experience and some fill
ins. Our lone pro-bowler will hopefully anchor things for awhile.
We'll see. The defense is not yet capable of carrying a game and some of the
players are still so young and inexperienced, that time will tell. And our
lone Pro-Bowler has been hurt the past three years. He's either fragile, or
he hates playing on a losing team. I say trade him.
NOOOooooo.
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
Maybe one day we can discuss Gruden's free agent acquisitions, but if they
stunk too, then how could a 34y/o coaching neophyte build a winning team
with no good draft picks or FAs? Al was actually coaching in a Gruden
lookalike costume? Hmmm....
Gruden hit the lottery with Gannon, and we still had Brown in his prime.
We simply needed to plug in Rice and Garner, an o-line that over-achieved
in pass protection, plus a few veterans to help the defense out, and we
were in business. The key player here was GANNON.
A hot QB will smooth over lotsa rough spots on a team, kinda like how hot
monkey sex can keep a shitty relationship intact when it has no reason to
exist.
Wat a minute, I could be wrong, but wasn't it you (or was it Shadow?) that
said that Brady or Manning wouled get killed behind our line and not get
anything done?
It was SHadow, but I agree. I was listening to Schllaerith (sp) today
talking about how the NE offense is predicated on 3.8 seconds of
protection, and if he doensn't get it, everything falls apart. Brady had
some shit games this year, and it was because he lost some key linemen.
They are back. So is NE.


And why did our line overachieve with Gannon and an arguably
Post by R. J. Salvi
better line today, underachieve with Collins?
That line was SPECTACULAR the year that Gannon won MVP. He had time to
look off to his fourth and 5th option, and we often sent our TE's.

This line is one of the worst I remember as a Raider fan.
Post by R. J. Salvi
It wasn't as simple as plugging in Rice and Garner and voila!...instant
offense. It was the right offense, with the right people, with the right
coaching that created that offensive synergy. We simply plugged in Moss and
Jordan with our vertically inclined Collins and voila!..uh-oh. Why the
difference?
No line, and Moss can't run.
Post by R. J. Salvi
Yes, a hot QB will smooth over a lot of rough spots, but enticing a good one
to the current Raiders is like a monkey fucking a football...ain't no way
the job's gonna get done.
--
Gary
The Shadow
2005-12-22 22:46:49 UTC
Permalink
"R. J. Salvi" <***@ambianceacoustics.com> wrote :


<snip>
Post by R. J. Salvi
Wat a minute, I could be wrong, but wasn't it you (or was it Shadow?) that
said that Brady or Manning wouled get killed behind our line and not get
anything done? And why did our line overachieve with Gannon and an
arguably better line today, underachieve with Collins?
I said that Brady and Manning would get killed with the O line we have
today.

Gannon was the drill Sgt. and if somebody was not doing the right thing he
would give them an earful.

Collins does have a great arm but there is no leadership there and even less
on the sidelines with Turner as coach.


Gannon was able to survive without Gruden and Gruden used the knowledge he
had on Gannon to the mighty Bucs' D that Dungy built.
Post by R. J. Salvi
Yes, a hot QB will smooth over a lot of rough spots, but enticing a good
one to the current Raiders is like a monkey fucking a football...ain't no
way the job's gonna get done.
Tell you what, this is the time of the year I miss not seeing Rich Gannon
out on the football field.
Charles Manson IV
2005-12-23 00:33:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Shadow
Gannon was able to survive without Gruden and Gruden used the knowledge he
had on Gannon to the mighty Bucs' D that Dungy built.
Gannon survived for the same reason Callahan survived. It was Gruden
who built the system. Are you aware that TB scored the 5th highest #
of points in post season history that year. It was not ALL against the
Raiders. He gave full credit to Dungy for building the defense. Prior
to getting to the Super Bowl, he had to beat a pretty tough Eagles
team in Philly, in the type of weather that the BUCS had NEVER won in
before. They won 27-10. It was not all Dungy's defense.

You want to give Dungy all or most the credit for the Bucs winning the
Super Bowl. You want to give Gruden little or NO credit for the
Raiders getting there. Interesting........

I'm not saying Gruden is as good as Bellichick or The Tuna. Still, I
never believed Gruden would be better than 8-8 this year. You can say
he's beating weak NFC teams.

Well, how come we can't even beat pathetic teams like the Jets and
the pathetic Browns at* home*? We got rid of that " bum" Gruden and
our ultra-high powered offense scored SEVEN points against the "
powerhouse" Cleveland Browns last Sunday. The " vertical" game baby!!

I'm not a " Grudenite" but he is a YEAR ahead of schedule. Let's face
it, you WANT Gruden to fail, Never mind that TB won't be in salary cap
hell starting in 2006 and we also lost Bruce Allen thanks to Davis.
Never mind that the *only* winning seasons the Raiders have had since
they moved back to Oakland 11 seasons ago was because of Gruden.

If Gruden fails , that is going to win the Raiders a Super Bowl,
right? To me, it is like a guy who dumps a nice girlfriend, fails to
find another nice girfriend and now wishes bad luck on the girl he
dumped.

Gruden turned a Raiders team around that was in total disarray, he
went to another team and won a Super Bowl and did all that before the
age of 40. Now he has Allen to help with personnel and keep the salary
cap in check. How well do expect the Raiders to do compared to TB in
the next three years??
The Shadow
2005-12-23 10:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Manson IV
You want to give Dungy all or most the credit for the Bucs winning the
Super Bowl. You want to give Gruden little or NO credit for the
Raiders getting there. Interesting........
I never said that.

However Gruden did not get that far with Jeff George did he?

All I said was that Gannon was the key to the Raiders' success, Gruden was
the locksmith.
Charles Manson IV
2005-12-23 12:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Shadow
Post by Charles Manson IV
You want to give Dungy all or most the credit for the Bucs winning the
Super Bowl. You want to give Gruden little or NO credit for the
Raiders getting there. Interesting........
I never said that.
However Gruden did not get that far with Jeff George did he?
Jeff George and was Al's back to the " vertical game " plan . Gruden
had nothing to do with that. No coach could have gotten anywhere with
Al's boy Jeff George.
Post by The Shadow
All I said was that Gannon was the key to the Raiders' success, Gruden was
the locksmith.
It was Gruden who got Gannon. There is no way ( based on Al's 40+ year
history ) that Davis would have hired a starting QB like Gannon on his
own. Jeff George was obviously Al's idea. Al even gave George
Lamonica's old #.

Gruden through sheer force of his will, got Al to temporarily change
his outdated ways. It was the Raider fans who made Gruden bigger than
life. Not me, the ones who brought " Chuckie dolls" to the Coliseum.
Al held the trump card. The contract was for three years with an
option for two more. In 2000, people started looking at the Raiders as
Gruden's team. Al's ego could not take it. Al thought he built "
organizations." He honestly believed he could just plug in any coach
and win. That worked in 1969. It worked in 1979. Unfortunately for Al
and the Raider fans, the game had changed by 2000.

How well do expect the Raiders to do compared to TB in
the next three years? Don't waste your time with nonsense like the NFC
is weaker. Under the Al plan we have lost two consecutive games to the
" mighty " NY Jets and the " powerful " Cleveland Browns.
The Shadow
2005-12-24 00:32:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Manson IV
It was Gruden who got Gannon. There is no way ( based on Al's 40+ year
history ) that Davis would have hired a starting QB like Gannon on his
own. Jeff George was obviously Al's idea. Al even gave George
Lamonica's old #.
That is the case but Gannon would have done just fine on another football
team besides the Raiders, the same can not be said for Gruden who has yet to
find a decent QB for the Disney Pirates. Hence the reason why he tried to
lure Gannon back into the NFL after he retired due to a broken neck. Makes
you appreciate the fact that Chucky thinks about the players health over a
football game eh?
Post by Charles Manson IV
Gruden through sheer force of his will, got Al to temporarily change
his outdated ways. It was the Raider fans who made Gruden bigger than
life. Not me, the ones who brought " Chuckie dolls" to the Coliseum.
Al held the trump card. The contract was for three years with an
option for two more. In 2000, people started looking at the Raiders as
Gruden's team. Al's ego could not take it. Al thought he built "
organizations." He honestly believed he could just plug in any coach
and win. That worked in 1969. It worked in 1979. Unfortunately for Al
and the Raider fans, the game had changed by 2000.
Makes me think about that scene in the film Bladerunner when Roy Batty meets
his creator Tyrell.

"The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long and you have
burned so very, very brightly Roy. Look at you, you're the prodigal son,
you're quite a prize."
Post by Charles Manson IV
How well do expect the Raiders to do compared to TB in
the next three years? Don't waste your time with nonsense like the NFC
is weaker. Under the Al plan we have lost two consecutive games to the
" mighty " NY Jets and the " powerful " Cleveland Browns.
I can not predict the future but I did say in the past that Kerry Collins
was not the answer and that Norv Turner was not great of a coach.

I also said that Gruden would never win another Super Bowl.

Damn, perhaps I can see into the future.
Charles Manson IV
2005-12-24 01:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Shadow
Post by Charles Manson IV
It was Gruden who got Gannon. There is no way ( based on Al's 40+ year
history ) that Davis would have hired a starting QB like Gannon on his
own. Jeff George was obviously Al's idea. Al even gave George
Lamonica's old #.
That is the case but Gannon would have done just fine on another football
team besides the Raiders, the same can not be said for Gruden who has yet to
find a decent QB for the Disney Pirates. Hence the reason why he tried to
lure Gannon back into the NFL after he retired due to a broken neck. Makes
you appreciate the fact that Chucky thinks about the players health over a
football game eh?
What???????? Gannon was looked at as nothing more than a backup by
every other coach he played for. Gruden created a system based on what
Gannon could do and Gannon thrived in it.

I guess you are unaware that Jim Otto sacrificed his body for FIVE
years after Dr's told him he would end up crippled if he did not quit.
Al Davis had no problem with it. I take it you never read the Book by
a former Raider's team physician called : You're OK, It's Just A
Bruise : A Doctor's Sideline Secrets About Pro Football's Most
Outrageous Team -- by Rob Huizenga;

No coach can " lure" a player into playing with the possibility of a
permanent serious injury. It's the player's decision. IMHO , Otto was
crazy to play with the kind of injuries he had, but it was his
decision. Nobody forced him.
Post by The Shadow
Post by Charles Manson IV
Gruden through sheer force of his will, got Al to temporarily change
his outdated ways. It was the Raider fans who made Gruden bigger than
life. Not me, the ones who brought " Chuckie dolls" to the Coliseum.
Al held the trump card. The contract was for three years with an
option for two more. In 2000, people started looking at the Raiders as
Gruden's team. Al's ego could not take it. Al thought he built "
organizations." He honestly believed he could just plug in any coach
and win. That worked in 1969. It worked in 1979. Unfortunately for Al
and the Raider fans, the game had changed by 2000.
Makes me think about that scene in the film Bladerunner when Roy Batty meets
his creator Tyrell.
"The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long and you have
burned so very, very brightly Roy. Look at you, you're the prodigal son,
you're quite a prize."
Never saw the movie.
Post by The Shadow
Post by Charles Manson IV
How well do expect the Raiders to do compared to TB in
the next three years? Don't waste your time with nonsense like the NFC
is weaker. Under the Al plan we have lost two consecutive games to the
" mighty " NY Jets and the " powerful " Cleveland Browns.
I can not predict the future but I did say in the past that Kerry Collins
was not the answer and that Norv Turner was not great of a coach.
At least we felt the same way about that.
Post by The Shadow
I also said that Gruden would never win another Super Bowl.
Damn, perhaps I can see into the future.
Nobody can see into the future, but Gruden is only 42. I predict he
will hoist the Lombardi trophy again.
The Shadow
2005-12-24 14:15:20 UTC
Permalink
"Charles Manson IV" <***@X.Net> wrote :


<snip>
Post by Charles Manson IV
What???????? Gannon was looked at as nothing more than a backup by
every other coach he played for. Gruden created a system based on what
Gannon could do and Gannon thrived in it.
Now if this Ohio boy could see Gannon's talents could be used as a starter
for some team when he was riding the bench then I think any other coach in
the NFL could see it as well.

Then again Jon Gruden grew up not too far from where I grew up so there must
be something in the water.

Look, I think Gruden is a decent coach but he is not the great coach that
you are painting him out to be. Least you forget that the Raiders should
have had home field advantage during the 2001 season but Chucky blew it
since he was upset with big Al and already looking for another team to go
to. He did not give his 100% and that is why the Raiders ended up playing
the "tuck" game, a game that any other coach would have won if they did not
have their head up their ass and not paying attention to what was going on
out on the playing field.

In other words, Al Davis lets his ego get in the way but so does Jon Gruden.
Different wings on the same bird.
Post by Charles Manson IV
I guess you are unaware that Jim Otto sacrificed his body for FIVE
years after Dr's told him he would end up crippled if he did not quit.
Al Davis had no problem with it. I take it you never read the Book by
a former Raider's team physician called : You're OK, It's Just A
Bruise : A Doctor's Sideline Secrets About Pro Football's Most
Outrageous Team -- by Rob Huizenga;
No coach can " lure" a player into playing with the possibility of a
permanent serious injury. It's the player's decision. IMHO , Otto was
crazy to play with the kind of injuries he had, but it was his
decision. Nobody forced him.
Dude, I have been a Raider fan ever since the days of Daryle Lamonica, Jim
Otto is "Mr. Raider" in my eyes. It was up to Otto to keep playing and he
paid the price. You got to remember that Al Davis is making sure that Otto
is well taken care of, nobody is forcing Al Davis to do that. I am very
aware of Rob Huizenga's book, most football teams do the same.

And yes, Gruden did try to see if Rich Gannon would play for his Bucs but
Rich was smart enough to forget his ego and think about his kids.
Post by Charles Manson IV
Post by The Shadow
I can not predict the future but I did say in the past that Kerry Collins
was not the answer and that Norv Turner was not great of a coach.
At least we felt the same way about that.
We see eye to eye on most things.
Post by Charles Manson IV
Post by The Shadow
I also said that Gruden would never win another Super Bowl.
Damn, perhaps I can see into the future.
Nobody can see into the future, but Gruden is only 42. I predict he
will hoist the Lombardi trophy again.
If he plays the Raiders with Gannon as the QB for the Silver&Black. ;-)
The Shadow
2005-12-24 14:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Since I got you here, ever think about writing a book yourself on your
experience as a Raiders' fan and how things have changed?

Just a thought, I would be the first in line to buy it.


Keep the faith, Merry Christmas!
Post by JC Martin
<snip>
Post by Charles Manson IV
What???????? Gannon was looked at as nothing more than a backup by
every other coach he played for. Gruden created a system based on what
Gannon could do and Gannon thrived in it.
Now if this Ohio boy could see Gannon's talents could be used as a starter
for some team when he was riding the bench then I think any other coach in
the NFL could see it as well.
Then again Jon Gruden grew up not too far from where I grew up so there
must be something in the water.
Look, I think Gruden is a decent coach but he is not the great coach that
you are painting him out to be. Least you forget that the Raiders should
have had home field advantage during the 2001 season but Chucky blew it
since he was upset with big Al and already looking for another team to go
to. He did not give his 100% and that is why the Raiders ended up playing
the "tuck" game, a game that any other coach would have won if they did
not have their head up their ass and not paying attention to what was
going on out on the playing field.
In other words, Al Davis lets his ego get in the way but so does Jon
Gruden. Different wings on the same bird.
Post by Charles Manson IV
I guess you are unaware that Jim Otto sacrificed his body for FIVE
years after Dr's told him he would end up crippled if he did not quit.
Al Davis had no problem with it. I take it you never read the Book by
a former Raider's team physician called : You're OK, It's Just A
Bruise : A Doctor's Sideline Secrets About Pro Football's Most
Outrageous Team -- by Rob Huizenga;
No coach can " lure" a player into playing with the possibility of a
permanent serious injury. It's the player's decision. IMHO , Otto was
crazy to play with the kind of injuries he had, but it was his
decision. Nobody forced him.
Dude, I have been a Raider fan ever since the days of Daryle Lamonica, Jim
Otto is "Mr. Raider" in my eyes. It was up to Otto to keep playing and he
paid the price. You got to remember that Al Davis is making sure that
Otto is well taken care of, nobody is forcing Al Davis to do that. I am
very aware of Rob Huizenga's book, most football teams do the same.
And yes, Gruden did try to see if Rich Gannon would play for his Bucs but
Rich was smart enough to forget his ego and think about his kids.
Post by Charles Manson IV
Post by The Shadow
I can not predict the future but I did say in the past that Kerry Collins
was not the answer and that Norv Turner was not great of a coach.
At least we felt the same way about that.
We see eye to eye on most things.
Post by Charles Manson IV
Post by The Shadow
I also said that Gruden would never win another Super Bowl.
Damn, perhaps I can see into the future.
Nobody can see into the future, but Gruden is only 42. I predict he
will hoist the Lombardi trophy again.
If he plays the Raiders with Gannon as the QB for the Silver&Black. ;-)
131,33,17
2005-12-24 15:37:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Shadow
Since I got you here, ever think about writing a book yourself on your
experience as a Raiders' fan and how things have changed?
Just a thought, I would be the first in line to buy it.
Keep the faith, Merry Christmas!
... & I'd be right behind you ... Shad'.
X ... you are one of the most knowledgeable Oakland RAIDERS fans in this
group from a historical standpoint. I have often enjoyed your explicit
descriptions of your past experiences at the old Oakland RAIDERS games
... as well as your overall perspective as an Oakland native.

I think you should seriously consider writing a book. Although you don't
think much of me ... I do respect you & would welcome @ our (bracing
myself) tailgate party anytime. Though you stated you wouldn't ever
attend ... the invite is open ... ALWAYS!!

Don't stray too far from the "Realm of the Silver & Black" ... & above
all else ... ALWAYS find enjoyment in anything you do.

Take care & Merry Christmas!!
--
Godspeed RAIDERS!!!
131,33,17
JC Martin
2005-12-27 14:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by JC Martin
<snip>
Post by Charles Manson IV
What???????? Gannon was looked at as nothing more than a backup by
every other coach he played for. Gruden created a system based on what
Gannon could do and Gannon thrived in it.
Now if this Ohio boy could see Gannon's talents could be used as a starter
for some team when he was riding the bench then I think any other coach in
the NFL could see it as well.
Then again Jon Gruden grew up not too far from where I grew up so there must
be something in the water.
Look, I think Gruden is a decent coach but he is not the great coach that
you are painting him out to be. Least you forget that the Raiders should
have had home field advantage during the 2001 season but Chucky blew it
since he was upset with big Al and already looking for another team to go
to. He did not give his 100% and that is why the Raiders ended up playing
the "tuck" game, a game that any other coach would have won if they did not
have their head up their ass and not paying attention to what was going on
out on the playing field.
In other words, Al Davis lets his ego get in the way but so does Jon Gruden.
Different wings on the same bird.
Yeah, but younger egos tend to function better than older ones. Once
senility kicks in...well, you know. We are Raider fans after all. :-)

-JC
JC Martin
2005-12-27 14:36:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Shadow
Post by Charles Manson IV
It was Gruden who got Gannon. There is no way ( based on Al's 40+ year
history ) that Davis would have hired a starting QB like Gannon on his
own. Jeff George was obviously Al's idea. Al even gave George
Lamonica's old #.
That is the case but Gannon would have done just fine on another football
team besides the Raiders,
He was pretty average before the Raiders Shadow. Shit, his job was
always in jeopardy in K.C.. I thought he was a decent journeyman QB,
but I had no clue he'd turn out to be as good for us as he did. Gruden
has to get some credit for that.
Post by The Shadow
the same can not be said for Gruden who has yet to
find a decent QB for the Disney Pirates.
Simms is improving game by game from what I can see. I'd take him over
Collins, that's fo sho.

-JC
The Shadow
2005-12-27 14:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Shadow
Post by Charles Manson IV
It was Gruden who got Gannon. There is no way ( based on Al's 40+ year
history ) that Davis would have hired a starting QB like Gannon on his
own. Jeff George was obviously Al's idea. Al even gave George
Lamonica's old #.
That is the case but Gannon would have done just fine on another football
team besides the Raiders,
He was pretty average before the Raiders Shadow. Shit, his job was always
in jeopardy in K.C.. I thought he was a decent journeyman QB, but I had
no clue he'd turn out to be as good for us as he did. Gruden has to get
some credit for that.
Gannon always knew that he could be a starter somewhere, I knew that he
could be a starter anywhere also. Even though I am not a fan of the Vikes
he did grab my attention and when I heard that KC picked him up I though "oh
shit". The reason his job was in jeopardy in KC was the coach, perhaps we
can get Bress from the Chargers. ;-)
Post by The Shadow
the same can not be said for Gruden who has yet to find a decent QB for
the Disney Pirates.
Simms is improving game by game from what I can see. I'd take him over
Collins, that's fo sho.
-JC
My grandmother is better then Collins.
JC Martin
2005-12-23 16:42:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Shadow
Post by Charles Manson IV
You want to give Dungy all or most the credit for the Bucs winning the
Super Bowl. You want to give Gruden little or NO credit for the
Raiders getting there. Interesting........
I never said that.
However Gruden did not get that far with Jeff George did he?
All I said was that Gannon was the key to the Raiders' success, Gruden was
the locksmith.
I dunno...Gruden took Gannon and turned what was previously journeyman
QB into a star.

-JC
131,33,17
2005-12-22 17:18:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by 131,33,17
Post by R. J. Salvi
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by JC Martin
Post by Gary DeWaay
Post by R. J. Salvi
I understand the frustration with this team because I'm expressing it
too...just differently than others (for example, rooting for Gruden).
They finally played a "big boy" team yesterday (an AFC playoff team).
Oops.
TB and Gruden: OVER RATED.
Gruden may be overrated, but he's the best head coach we've had for the
Raiders since Madden.
Perhaps, but he is gone now, and he is not anywhere close to the great
coach the Al-haters make him out to be. He hit the lottery with TB his
first year and now is in charge of a mediocre team that is all of his
design. There is not ONE quality win on his schedule this year (same as
us) and he lost to SF for fucksake. His team sucked just as bad as we did
last year, and only won 7 the year before... perhaps people forget?
Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al? I still
get confused on what we are supposed to give credit to Gruden for, and
what we are supposed to blame Al for during the Gruden years).
Post by JC Martin
Now let's start a Flores debate, k? ;-)
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?
2001 28 28 Derrick Gibson DB Florida State
STINKS
2 2 28 59 Marques Tuiasosopo QB Washington
STINKS
3 3 27 89 DeLawrence Grant DE Oregon State
STINKS
4 5 27 158 Raymond Perryman DBNorthern Arizona
STINKS (Gone)
5 6 21 184 Chris Cooper DE Nebraska-Omaha
STINKS (Gone)
6 7 28 228 Derek Combs RB Ohio State
STINKS (Gone)
7 7 29 229 Ken-Yon Rambo WR Ohio State
STINKS (Gone)
2000 1 1 17 17 Sebastian Janikowski K Florida State
MEDIOCRE
2 2 16 47 Jerry Porter WR West Virginia
Great pick.
3 4 13 107 Junior Ioane DT Arizona State
STINKS (Gone)
4 5 13 142 Shane Lechler P Texas A&M
Good pick
5 7 21 227 Mondriel Fulcher RB Miami (FL)
STINKS (Gone)
6 7 25 231 Clifton Black DB Southwe Texas State
STINKS (Gone)
1999 1 1 18 18 Matt Stinchcomb T Georgia
STINKS (Gone)
2 2 9 40 Tony Bryant DE Florida State
STINKS (Gone)
3 4 7 102 Dameane Douglas WR California
STINKS (Gone)
4 5 13 146 Eric Barton LB Maryland
MEDIOCRE (Gone)
5 5 20 153 Roderick Coleman DE East Carolina
Good pick but gone.
6 6 19 188 Daren Yancey DT Brigham Young
STINKS (Gone)
7 7 18 224 JoJuan Armour LB Miami (OH)
STINKS (Gone)
1998 1 1 4 4 Charles Woodson DB Michigan
Good pick I guess.
2 1 23 23 Mo Collins T Florida
STINKS (Gone)
3 2 1 31 Leon Bender DT Washington State
STINKS (Gone)
4 3 2 63 Jon Ritchie RB Stanford
Mediocre (Gone)
5 4 17 109 Gennaro DiNapoli G Virginia Tech
STINKS (Gone)
6 5 4 127 Jeremy Brigham TE Washington
STINKS (Gone)
7 5 29 152 Travian Smith LB Oklahoma
STINKS (Gone)
8 7 41 230 Vince Amey DT Arizona State
STINKS (Gone)
9 7 46 235 David Sanders DE Arkansas
STINKS (Gone)
So in four years of Gruden picks we are playing a starting WR, a kicker
and a punter, and an occasionally outstanding CB that is injury prone.
I think I could do that good.
Be careful what you ask for (Citations) ...
Outstanding ... G'.
Silence is GOLDEN!!
"Plus, part of the reason we are stinking right now is we are playing with
his stinky fucking draft picks (oh wait, maybe that was all Al?"
Please understand, this was not a selective cut & paste to quote Gary out of
context. And I originally chose not to respond to this post because he
didn't accurately answer my question in the context it was asked and I
didn't want another shitstorm. But since YOU brought it up Pirate, here
goes.
Brought what up ... RJ. My response was ...

"Be careful what you ask for (Citations) ...
Outstanding ... G'.
Silence is GOLDEN!!"

How is that bringing up anything??
Post by R. J. Salvi
Citations please on Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks." Which ones?
My question was in reference to the Raiders current performance because Gary
was very specific in saying: "right now". Instead, I received a list which
represents ALL Gruden's draft picks, most of whom ARE NOT even with the team
"right now." If they *are not* playing right now, then we can conclude that
it *is not* Gruden's "stinky fucking draft picks" as the reason(s) the
Raiders are "stinking right now."
Thanks for the clarification. Better picks would've still been on the
roster ... contributing to the team. The fact that they are NOT IS proof
the "stinky draft picks" did (& are) having an effect on this current
team. Forget the rest ... just look @ "prince albert's" (janokowski's)
performance lately ...
Post by R. J. Salvi
This is not semantics. Gary makes a good point about draft picks under the
Gruden era as being busts, but look at the Raiders current roster and look
at the Raiders current record. No, Gruden's draft picks are not the reason
the Raiders suck right now.
There is no single reason that the RAIDERS suck right now ... just as
there is no single reason that teams win. It's a combination of factors
as I've said before. Players don't win championships ... Coaches don't
win championships ... Defense doesn't win championships ... complete
TEAMS win championships. gruden's faulty draft picks ARE a factor ...
but so is al's "quick fix" approach ...
Post by R. J. Salvi
Maybe one day we can discuss Gruden's free agent acquisitions, but if they
stunk too, then how could a 34y/o coaching neophyte build a winning team
with no good draft picks or FAs? Al was actually coaching in a Gruden
lookalike costume? Hmmm....
Good point ... We will never know ...

OK ... let me bottom line this for you ... RJ.
While it is true that gruden put the RAIDERS back on the map ... bottom
line ... the RAIDERS never WON a Super Bowl during his tenure.

Many site the "Tuck" game as a key reason that gruden's RAIDERS didn't
get to the big dance ... bottom line ... that game would not have been
played in new england if gruden's RAIDERS would NOT have completely
choked in the last three regular season (including a loss to the lowly
cardinals ferchristssakes!!). We were poised to host the playoffs &
enjoy a first round bye ... but instead were forced to enter the
playoffs through the back door as a wildcard because the team couldn't
win three key (& very winnable games) down the stretch when it counted.
I attribute that directly to coaching.

gruden was VERY GOOD coach & a few VERY GOOD coaches have won SBs
(ditka, billick, vermiel, etc)... & gruden was definitely the best coach
in terms of results since Flores.
While he was here ... I Loved the guy & I was a strong supporter of the
WC offense @ that time ... but ... bottom line ... NO SB wins.

I do agree with you that al davis' approach (quick fix) has an extremely
limited chance of success. al is up against the ultimate clock ... the
clock of life. He knows he's only got a few years of life left & he is
not willing to wait while young players develope (big mistake IMO) & so
we who root for the RAIDERS are pretty much doomed until al dies or can
no longer call the shots. I can't say that I blame him completely ... he
built the RAIDERS & he wants to "do it his way" now that he is in the
"sunset years" of his life.

Do I agree with his approach? ... NO. Do I want to see the RAIDERS
become a winner again? ... DAMN RIGHT I DO!!.

Bottom line ... al probably won't change his philosophy ... no matter
how much we hope & pray & face tampa chanting "gruden gruden gruden".

Seasons Greetings My Friend!!
--
Godspeed RAIDERS!!!
131,33,17
Gary DeWaay
2005-12-22 18:34:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by 131,33,17
Good point ... We will never know ...
OK ... let me bottom line this for you ... RJ.
While it is true that gruden put the RAIDERS back on the map ... bottom
line ... the RAIDERS never WON a Super Bowl during his tenure.
Many site the "Tuck" game as a key reason that gruden's RAIDERS didn't
get to the big dance ... bottom line ... that game would not have been
played in new england if gruden's RAIDERS would NOT have completely
choked in the last three regular season (including a loss to the lowly
cardinals ferchristssakes!!). We were poised to host the playoffs &
enjoy a first round bye ... but instead were forced to enter the
playoffs through the back door as a wildcard because the team couldn't
win three key (& very winnable games) down the stretch when it counted.
I attribute that directly to coaching.
And one more thing on this "Gruden is great" thingie. This years TB team
is winning primarily because of DEFENSE. What in the hell does Gruden
have to do with defense? Besides perhaps giving a player his scowl when
they fuck up? Gruden is an offensive guy, and his team is 24th in the
league in offense (behind Oakland) and they have played a SHIT SCHEDULE.

And how in the fuck can a "great" coach lose to SF this year?

Oh yea, the Al-haters will say that they lost their QB... well Simms is
Grudens guy... he was drafted by Gruden, and tutored by him, why is it not
Gruden's fault he is mediocre?

Last years team was 23rd in offense (behind Oakland).

"Great" my ass.
Post by 131,33,17
gruden was VERY GOOD coach & a few VERY GOOD coaches have won SBs
(ditka, billick, vermiel, etc)... & gruden was definitely the best coach
in terms of results since Flores.
While he was here ... I Loved the guy & I was a strong supporter of the
I also LOVED Gruden back then. He's as overrated as any coach in the
histroy of the NFL, but I still loved him. He was a perfect Raider coach.

He is now the enemy. Fuck him.
Post by 131,33,17
I do agree with you that al davis' approach (quick fix) has an extremely
limited chance of success. al is up against the ultimate clock ... the
clock of life. He knows he's only got a few years of life left & he is
not willing to wait while young players develope (big mistake IMO) & so
we who root for the RAIDERS are pretty much doomed until al dies or can
no longer call the shots. I can't say that I blame him completely ... he
built the RAIDERS & he wants to "do it his way" now that he is in the
"sunset years" of his life.
Do I agree with his approach? ... NO. Do I want to see the RAIDERS
become a winner again? ... DAMN RIGHT I DO!!.
Bottom line ... al probably won't change his philosophy ... no matter
how much we hope & pray & face tampa chanting "gruden gruden gruden".
Seasons Greetings My Friend!!
--
Gary
tsp
2005-12-22 19:47:32 UTC
Permalink
I agreed 100%, P.
Charles Manson IV
2005-12-22 22:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by 131,33,17
Many site the "Tuck" game as a key reason that gruden's RAIDERS didn't
get to the big dance ... bottom line ... that game would not have been
played in new england if gruden's RAIDERS would NOT have completely
choked in the last three regular season (including a loss to the lowly
cardinals ferchristssakes!!). We were poised to host the playoffs &
enjoy a first round bye ... but instead were forced to enter the
playoffs through the back door as a wildcard because the team couldn't
win three key (& very winnable games) down the stretch when it counted.
I attribute that directly to coaching.
Three of those losses are directly attributed to the fact that we had
an immature kicker who pierced his cock during the season. We had to
hire Brad Deloiso for the last game against the Jets and lost out on
the BYE week when Deloiso missed easy field goals while the Jets John
Hall won the game and took away our BYE week with a 54 yard field goal
as time expired. We also lost THREE starting O-Lineman that year. The
defense was in the bottom 1/3 of the league. Given the injuries the
Raiders had in 2001 and a bad defense, I thought it was one of the
best coaching jobs, I've ever seen.
Post by 131,33,17
gruden was VERY GOOD coach & a few VERY GOOD coaches have won SBs
(ditka, billick, vermiel, etc)... & gruden was definitely the best coach
in terms of results since Flores.
While he was here ... I Loved the guy & I was a strong supporter of the
Let's see, Gruden took over a team in total disarray in 1998. Davis
refused to give him a contract for what he was worth and job security
( 5 year contract extension that he asked for, and fair market value)
after the 2000 season. Gruden was traded! Al made the speech about how
" I build organizations " and how " I told the Glaziers the cost would
be prohibitive to get Gruden"

Bottom Line: Gruden DID win the Super Bowl for TB in a total bitch
slapping of the Raiders.
Post by 131,33,17
I do agree with you that al davis' approach (quick fix) has an extremely
limited chance of success. al is up against the ultimate clock ... the
clock of life. He knows he's only got a few years of life left & he is
not willing to wait while young players develope (big mistake IMO) & so
we who root for the RAIDERS are pretty much doomed until al dies or can
no longer call the shots. I can't say that I blame him completely ... he
built the RAIDERS & he wants to "do it his way" now that he is in the
"sunset years" of his life.
At least we agree on something.
Post by 131,33,17
Do I agree with his approach? ... NO. Do I want to see the RAIDERS
become a winner again? ... DAMN RIGHT I DO!!.
Bottom line ... al probably won't change his philosophy ... no matter
how much we hope & pray & face tampa chanting "gruden gruden gruden".
This thread was about draft choices made during the Gruden years. And
or it was about if the Gruden Era draft choices are the reason the
Raiders have double digit losses for three consecutive years.

The draft has ALWAYS been Al's baby going back to the 60's. Gruden and
others might have had some input, but Al always makes the final
decisions on draft day.

Happy Holidays to you and your loved ones.
JC Martin
2005-12-23 00:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles Manson IV
The draft has ALWAYS been Al's baby going back to the 60's. Gruden and
others might have had some input, but Al always makes the final
decisions on draft day.
Yup. Some people, and I mean this seriously, HATE Gruden for leaving
the Raider organization/family and then completely devastating us the
next year in the Super Bowl. But Al simply didn't wanna pay Gruden fair
market value or give up any more control of the team than he already
had. Sad. I don't hate Al for it, but unless you're in denial, it's
got to be called the way it is. Al is a senile egomaniac well past his
prime.
Post by Charles Manson IV
Happy Holidays to you and your loved ones.
Same to you and yours.

-JC
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